Sunday, May 17, 2009

‏ ‏لن يفلح قوم ولوا أمرهم امرأة

هذا الحديث في صحيح البخاري كتاب الفتن رقم 6570

حدثنا ‏ ‏عثمان بن الهيثم ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عوف ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الحسن ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي بكرة ‏ ‏قال ‏
لقد نفعني الله بكلمة أيام الجمل لما بلغ النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏فارسا ‏ ‏ملكوا ابنة ‏ ‏كسرى ‏ ‏قال:
لن يفلح قوم
ولوا أمرهم امرأة

و المقصود "نفعني الله بكلمة أيام الجمل" أن أبي بكرة رضي الله عنه كان مناصرا لأم المؤمنين عائشة رضي الله عنها بعد مقتل عثمان رضي الله عنه و لكن لما وصل أمر الفتنة الى القتال رجع أبي بكرة و كف بسبب هذا الحديث

So.

The question here is being a parliament member considered "welaya 3amma" or not.

Since Majles il-Umma's main function is to be the "Legislative arm of Government", it is actually in a higher position than the "Executive arm of Government". Because simply put, it lays down the laws which Government should follow.

I also think the position of "Judge" is also "welaya 3amma". And again I don't think a woman should be appointed Judge either.

So based on the above 7adeeth I think it's a prophetic statemtent that speaks about any people who appoint a lady to public office.

I did not vote for women yesterday, and I had no doubt in my mind that Ma3sooma (my vote is in her constituency) was a great person. If she had been a man, I would probably vote for her. But again I didn't vote for her because of this 7adeeth.

So best of luck to Kuwait in their misguided choice to place 4 women into Parliament. Inshalla we don't get more in the future.

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

well i don't see majles filled with men who did anything..

chm mara en7al?


u see that as a sign ena its working?

saying that u didn't vote fore her just beacuse she is a woman is sexist..

b3dyn, in most families the WOMAN ely shayla el bait oo el rayal ga3d bl dwaneya yl3ab kout and watching 7aleema boland on tv..

9ra7a i would trust this country in the hands of the women wala el men.. ely ma swaw shay '3yr el boog, l3bo fena l3ab.. yamken m3a d5ol el mr2a el majles yt2dbon shway

Anonymous said...

from wht i have seen, religion is just a way to push woman back in the kitchen

telling them they are worth nothing over and over again. "9ot el mar2a 3awra" to shut them up

whatever

falantan said...

Ok, finally some discussion.

I'll take your points 1 by 1:

"well i don't see majles filled with men who did anything.. "

Actually, the majles before the last one was not bad, they approved more than 30 new laws (it then becomes the Government's job to implement them, and here lies the weakness)

"chm mara en7al?"

Again, the decision to break up the majles comes from il'Ameer, so he's solely responsible for it. Resigning the Gov. and installing new names solves nothing. And since the estejwab of the Ra'ees ilwezara' is according to the law, then I don't see why he insisted on resisting it and resigning 5 times. it's truly childsplay.

What he should have done was to respond bravely to the estejwab and if the PMs have weak arguments it would be themselves who will get shamed. Actually many PMs supported Naser ilMhammad and assured him they'd back him up during the estejwab. Yet his refusal is what caused il'azma.

I agree some of the reasons for the istejwab were silly, but it still stands within their right. And the silliness will backfire on them. But the refusal caused much more damage to the country, and is not excusable.

"u see that as a sign ena its working?"

The same PM's that called for estejwab last time all won this time. So it shows that the people who back them up want an answer. So I don't see how the women will solve the problem.

"saying that u didn't vote fore her just beacuse she is a woman is sexist.. "

This is an excellent point. Since I'm being sexist only by following kalaam irrasool pbuh, I ask you:
Do you think irrasool pbuh is sexist?
Allah Himself sub7ana wta3aala differentiates between the rights of men and the rights of women. 2 women wtinesses are required in the place of 1 man. 1 man gets the same amount as 2 women in inheritance. and so on. This is all plain and clear in the Qur'an.

So do you think Allah is sexist? if the answer is yes, and by your definition being sexist is a bad thing, then you're a goner la 7ola wala qowa illa billah. coz Allah is perfect, and His rules are perfect too.

I am a sexist person yes, because Islam is a sexist religion, but I define "sexist" not in a negative way.

I think sexist only means differentiation between the sexes. the sexes are not equal.

If however you mean by "sexist" that I think men are "better" than women. then no. I am not. I think each is suited for a different role, and neither is better or worse than the other. because you can't compare the two.

You can't say cars are better or worse than icecream. it's silly to say one is better than the other.

You should know that irrasool pbuh said:
"Rifqan bilqawareer" (gently with the vases. meaning women)
and also said among his last words on his dying bed:
"assalaat assalaat, wa estawsoo bennesaa' 5airan" (prayer, prayer, and be good to women)
and also said:
"5airokom 5airokom le'ahleh" (the best of you are those best to their families/women)

Is all this sexist too? you tell me.

"b3dyn, in most families the WOMAN ely shayla el bait oo el rayal ga3d bl dwaneya yl3ab kout and watching 7aleema boland on tv.."

This is a pathetic generalization.. most families I know, men contribute alot, just as the women do. 3aib ili tgoleena.

"religion is just a way to push woman back in the kitchen"

telling them they are worth nothing over and over again. "9ot el mar2a 3awra" to shut them up"

Religion comes from Allah. so if anyone is pushing them to the kitchen, it would be Allah. But I don't think a woman's role is simply in the kitchen, that's a gross simplification. my wife does a great job of taking care of me and my kids and she has 2 maids that do the cooking jobs and she basically manages everything.

And as far as her voice being 3awra, it is mentioned in the Qur'an that women should try to toughen up their voices when talking to foreign men
فَلا تَخْضَعْنَ بِالْقَوْلِ فَيَطْمَعَ الَّذِي فِي قَلْبِهِ مَرَضٌ

Otherwise I'm not shutting my wife up, we talk about all kinds of stuff.

Muhammad Abdul Mubdi said...

Kuwaiti citizens opted to follow dajjalism.Now kuwait has moved a step closer to dajjalism.The islamists in kuwait are the one who actually want to move the wheels of kuwait according to quran and sunnah but the ministers and kuwaiti citizens want to pracise dajjalism.And falatan keep it up.

Dee said...

well said .
i think your reply to the anonymous above was apprehensible more than your post .
im a woman and i wont feel offended if my husband asks me to stay home bl3aks this means he's trying to take a goodcare of me , it all depends on how you interpet others actions.

falantan said...

Thanks Dee ^^

Manutdfanatic said...

I agree. :)

Manutdfanatic said...

Just read your reply to Anon. Had my husband read it, as well. :)

From both of us - we couldn't have put it better ourselves!

It's a pity most people deny the blatant fact that the two genders are not equal time and time again. They come up with ideologies like feminism to fuel their chosen ignorance. Harsh, but true.

Simply stated, men and women each have their roles and duties to fill in society; red can never be blue and vice versa.

Lastly, as has become the norm here, great post. :)

falantan said...

Manutdfanatic: congrats on getting married! may Allah bless you both ya rab. and thanks for your kind words ^^

nameless said...

ill post my comment into two parts cause apprently it was too long to be posted in one,

mawtho3 momhim 7abait asharik bilmonaqasha, bas ma3tqid rady ra7 y3ajbik,

awal shay, esma7ly bas if u wana back up your view ya rait ur back it up using Qur'an and not a7adeth, why do i ask this?

well, i personally believe that not all a7adeth are true, not even the ones they claim to be

why?
ekhth'ha bilma6q yakhoy, enta 3indk kotb samwaya 7orfat, mithal iltawrat wilenjel, a7adeth noqlat bain ilafrad mara7 to7araf?
o ba3dain alah sba7ana o ta3ala always said ena ilQu'ran ohwa ely ma7foth wmara7 yo7araf, he mentioned nothing about the sina,

i do believe that Mohammed PBUH is a wise man and will not do or say anything unless a logical reason is present,

now, back to ur discussion,

u previously mentioned that

I'm being sexist only by following kalaam irrasool pbuh, I ask you:
Do you think irrasool pbuh is sexist?
Allah Himself sub7ana wta3aala differentiates between the rights of men and the rights of women. 2 women wtinesses are required in the place of 1 man. 1 man gets the same amount as 2 women in inheritance. and so on. This is all plain and clear in the Qur'an.

i dont like the term "sexist" because in definition sexist means

sexism |ˈsekˌsizəm|
noun
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

so i refuse to say the our prophet was sexist or alah sba7ana was, yes alah differs between THE RIGHTS with very logical reasons i will point out, BUT it does not by all means mean that he is against women

wilbilnisba lilshahada, the very logical reason for that is that women and all around the word has a brain the functions differently that men, it is scientifically proven that womens brain can function 2 or more things at a time whereas a man can simply not, o 3ashan chethy yt6alab shahadat ilrayal ib athnain min il7arem konhom yrakzon bma 7adath akthar min il7orma, etha kanat ga3da tsawy shaghla thanya aw etha kanat lahya ib omor ymkin enha ma rakzat bil7adath ely kanat taby tsh'hadla,
hathy noq6a khal9en minha

ilnoq6a ilthanya, the fact that a man gets the same amount as two women in inheritance,

hny, ilsbab wathi7, ilrayal dayman kan ilmas'ol ilawal 3an ilbait o ma9rofata, tlagy ilrayal lama ytzawaj ohwa ely ya9rif 3ala ahala min bdayat ilmahar wilbait ela l3yal etc.
ya3ny it is only fair to give double the amount a women gets la'ana mako 7orma bildinya btrtha tdfa3 mahar 7ag ilrayal o tsakna ib bait o ta9rif 3alaih,

hathy wa7d,

athnain,

you said that

You can't say cars are better or worse than icecream. it's silly to say one is better than the other.

hny yakhoy esma7ly but ur example is no where near logic, here we are comparing human beings and thats what matters,
alah 3az wajal ymkin farag bain il7qoq wilwajbat bas bilnhaya kilin yakhith jza EQUALLY bilakhra, fa alah sba7ana o ta3ala ma farag bain jins ilbashar bshay, 3shan chethy min ilkha6a' ena nansib a man and a women as two TOTTALY different things,
eg. a man or a women, etha znaw mara7 yakhthon nafs il3qab? etha bagaw, maho il3qab nafsa? .. laish? o dam fei tafreqa laish 9ar 3qab iljinsain ohwa thata? well, to me its simply because they're both human beings.

nameless said...

And as far as her voice being 3awra, it is mentioned in the Qur'an that women should try to toughen up their voices when talking to foreign men
فَلا تَخْضَعْنَ بِالْقَوْلِ فَيَطْمَعَ الَّذِي فِي قَلْبِهِ مَرَضٌ
i just need clarification here, "alathy fei qalbih marath" = foreign men ?

now back to my own discussion with u,
walnafrith ya akhy ilkarem ena il7adeth ely 7athrtik tfathalt fei 9a7ei7 100% (which btw i dont think can be proven so)
anyway, enta hny sakin ib balad wlilah il7amid eslamy, o 3indna ma9dar fatawy ely oho wzarat ilawqaf,
o9drat fatwa min wzarat ilawqaf ena il7arem lhom 7aq ilta9wet wilentkhab,
ba3dain eyony nas ygoleily la' la7tha hal fatwa mo 9a7ei7a this one is!
this one being a fatwa min ils3odya wila ilsodan wila ghairhom,
wain ilman6q bhal mawtho3?
damik sakin bhal balad fa bykon 3alaik waly mohtam fei omor ilden, o wzara kamla ta9dir ilfatawy wiltashre3
a3tqid min il3aib ena nhashim dor wzara mithil hathy o nyeb fatawy min bara, ya akhy enta 3indk ma9dar fatawy bdertik, sha6 o ray7 yaybly fatwa min bara sh7aga?

and finally, ya rait ya akhy ilkarem twath7ly sibab wa7d leqtna3ik bmithil hatha ilfikr, kh9o9an weny sabaq wthkart ena ilrasol 3alaih il9alat wilsalam ma sawa shay ela bwjod asbab man6qya lkhtyara,

ya3ny bthmtik shno ohwa ilsibab ilma6qy ely ykhalek wbrghim min eqtna3ik bkafa'at ilmar'a tarfith wjodha bilmajlis,
3indk wzarat iltarbya mathlan, ma tnsn3at ela lama ilekht norya il9be7 msakat'ha, a9drat qawanen, akbar shanab ma gdar ya9drha khilal tawaly ilwzara, wgfat thid estjwab akbar shanab ma gdar yogaf fei,

ileslam min wjhat nathary howa den ilma6q wilmowasa, arfith tadakhol afkar jdeda 3ala qor'ana ilkarem o tafser ileslam b9ora ghair man6qya

i will discuss this further more after u reply to what i had to say

o esma7ly asheed fei majhodik yakhoy, ur blog is one of very few that i enjoy, gawak alah

falantan said...

heeeeeh heeh, waraana ana wiyak darb 6eweel ;)

bs don't worry about me not liking your opinions bel3aks I post because I want discussion. So thank you for the discussion.

Awal shai, o as far as I'm concerned, this is the most important point that you mentioned. throwing away issinna like you said is very dangerous and wrong. for many clear and obvious reasons:
1- The Qur'an itself came to us through the same people who gave us issinna. And you can't use the aya to prove that its free of mistakes, because if it did have ta7reef then the people who transferred the many chains of Qur'an can change the aya itself.

2- Irrasool pbuh said himself that there will come people in the end of times who reject issinna and say we should only take the Qur'an

" لا ألفين أحدكم متكئا على أريكته يأتيه الأمر من أمري مما أَمرت به أو نَهيت عنه ، فيقول : بيننا وبينكم هذا القرآن ، فما وجدنا فيه من حلال حلّلناه ، وما وجدنا فيه من حرام حرَّمناه ، ألا وإني أوتيت الكتاب ومثله معه ، ألا وإنه مثل القرآن أو أعظم " ، هذا الحديث في السنن والمسانيد مأثور عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم من عدة جهات من حديث أبي ثعلبة وأبى رافع وأبي هريرة وغيرهم .

Can be found in detail here and here.

3- it's detailed in the links, but I'll say it here again. Without ilsinna we don't know how to pray and do zakaat and many particulars of how to worship.

--------------

So that covers the point of a7adeeth. and I don't accept the view that they're "mostly messed up". Many scholars from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries of islam dedicated their lives to the collection and preservation of 7adeeth. some are sa7ee7, some are 7asan, some are tha3eef, and many are just plain "mawthoo3". so there ARE distinctions.

Its like a whole science, archeology for irasool's sayings pbuh. be careful not to dismiss the whole thing.

falantan said...

on to the 2nd point:

You seem to be placing "Logic" ontop of any 7adeeth you hear about. obviously because you feel that a7adeeth are not very trustworthy (like you said in the previous point).

I don't agree with this.

I first try to make sure that the 7adeeth is sa7ee7 or tha3eef, before I judge its contents with my mind.

The authenticity of a 7adeeth depends solely on the chain of men who passed it along til it reached the book author (like il-Bu5aari for example). It has nothing to do with the actual text of the 7adeeth.

For example, there's a 7adeeth sa7ee7 which says if you find a fly in your drink, don't just throw it away, but immerse it fully, then take it out and throw it away.

This 7adeeth is a perfect example because on its face, some people say "wait.. this doesn't make sense!".

I just don't think that our minds are the "top" determinant on what's true. we guess and estimate and theorize, and we wait for time to determine if our theories to be proven or need adjustment.

If according to the criteria I choose to determine if a 7adeeth is sa7ee7 or not, I find a 7adeeth that conflicts with my mind, then I believe the 7adeeth and tell my mind that its ignorant.

falantan said...

I agree with you that men and women are equal in ANY matter in which Allah did not specifically differentiate between them.

But I also think that there ARE several things in which Allah differentiates between men and women.

I don't think we're disagreeing here.

In your own words you mention that women's brains work slightly differently than men's. I agree. and this is a perfectly logical basis to differentiate between their roles.

But this difference is NOT open ended. ya3ne men don't have the right to deny women any rights which are Allah didn't deny to them.

As for being a wazeera, there are bigger examples than Noriya ilSibee7 Alla y7afeth'ha o y3eenha. Margaret Thatcher for example.

But the case that they were successful in their specific careers/cases does NOT mean that its ok.

My top rule is kalaam irasool pbuh. which means that Thatcher and il-Sibee7 were lucky examples. but as a general rule I should not give "welaya 3amma" to a woman. again based on the 7adeeth.

falantan said...

also you mentioned ilfatwa min wezarat il'awqaf and s3oodiya etc.

I didn't mentioned anything about where I got any "fatwa" from anywhere.. s3oodiya or ghairha.. weird that you assumed that.

But anyway, ilmarji3 in the end is not the fatwa. I don't follow a fatwa without reading it and checking the basis of Qur'an and Sinna it was based on.

All the 4 imams ilshaaf3i, ibn-Malik, ibn-7anbal abu-7aneefa, they all have been heard to say something like:
if what I say contradicts what irrasool pbuh says, then throw what I saw across the wall.

So clearly any fatwa made by any islamic scholar is assumed that he tried to follow the Qur'an and Sinna as best he could, based on the best information he had at the time.

we're not like christians who say that their clerics are "ma3someen 3n il5a6a'". we say only irrasool pbuh is ma3soom. no one else. everyone else we take their judgement only if it follows the rule of Allah and irrasool pbuh, and reject it if it doesn't.

nameless said...

1. mithil ma ana wyak nadry ena alah sba7ana o ta3ala 7fath ilQur'an ilkarem min ilta7ref, but he mentioned nothing about ila7adeth,
3ala rasy the people ely nqalonlna ilQur'an walakin there is no way ena ygdron y7arfona for the reason i mentioned above, lakin lama tgoly ena ila7adeth mo mo7arafa bagolik wain dalelik ma ohma ham awadim ely nqalaw lina iltawrat wilenjel o ma3a thalik 7orfat, fa bilnisba for how dangerous what i had to say, i said it with logic and nothing but logic, ilshaghla ilthanya, enta 3indk a7adeth ma yaqblha la 3aqil wala man6iq, ely mathalan, ma ya7therny bilna9 walakin bima3na ena kil min esma and here i put two lines ta7at kilmat HIS NAME 7omad aw 3obad dakhal iljana, to me this does not make sense

2. again, not proven.

3. 6wel il3omir, ana ma gitlik ilsina kilha ib kobrha ghala6 ana sabaq wan thkrat ena ilba3ath minhom are not true o ma gilt kilhom
ilshaghla ilthanya, la 3adil kalamik, estfadna wayd min ilsina walakin hal hatha ma3na ena kol ma nosb ela ilrasol 3alaih il9alat wilsalam howa biltharora ma qalah? ya akhy ilkarem sabaq wan thkart lik ena ilsina mahy ma7fotha min ilta7ref whatha shay ma a3tqid ena tikhtlif wyay fei la'ana mafy aya wa7da min ilqor'an baynat 7ifth ilsina min ilta7ref mithil ma ilqur'an ilkarem ma7foth

ymkin enta mo mitqabil wjhat nathary fei hal mawtho3 wana akin lshakh9ik kil e7tram walakin this is the way i think.

nameless said...

____

shift? enta nafsik gilt ena u make sure etha kan il7adeth 9a7e7 aw tha3ef etc. ma3na chethy ena 7ata ila7adeth with3o fei mawqif jadal aw shak 3ind ilba3ath o hatha ely ilden ileslamy ma yaqbla, ilden ileslamy woth3 a7kam wath7a o 9arma min khilal ilQur'an ilkarem.
o ba3dain shghla,
bileslam nafsa 3indna she3a o sina,
now the people ely nqalaw af3al o sinan ilrasol claim that they saw him pbuh pray in two different poisons marat ynazil eida o marat yachfis eida o ohwa y9aly, o ilyom tshof kil math'hab lah 6areqa kha9a bil9alat, min wjhat natharik is it safe to say that one of these mathahib is wrong or kafara?
now i know hal swalif t9er bain ilsina wilshe3a walakin min wjhat nathary etha they both are moslims o mitakhthen ilQur'an lhom ktab fa ma yjoz la 3alay wala 3ala ghairy akafir ayin minhom.

ana wyak, alah 3az wajal 7aram 3alaina iltafker fei ashya' 3ida minha ilghaybyat wghairha for a reason that even our logic would not absorb fully what our God had to mention, mokh ilbany adam lah limit mo3yan momkin ena yo9ala min iltafker sawa'an bilma6q wila ghaira walah 3az wajal thikar ena e7na "humans" simply would not be able to absorb everything there is with our limited brains, lthalik fei omor wayd thokrat bilQur'an ana lail7ein ma agdar afasirhom b6areqa man6qya, walakin lama tyiy tgoly "7adeth" bard a3edlik nafs ilpoint ely fog, ila7adeth kanaw kalam noqil min awadim, min ilmosta7el enk tit'akad 100% enhom true.

momkin ena ana wyak nig3ad miny lai bachir entnaqash bmada 9i7at ba3ath ila7adeth walakin wala wa7d feina momkin ena yathbit o bildalel il9arim ie: kalam alah ena wjhat nathra ehya il9a7ei7a, maybe im wrong but then again maybe u are.

its all about maybe's bilnisba lila7adeth walakin lama tyiy 7ag ilQur'an ilkarem there can never be "maybe this wasn't really what God said" lana mithil ma thkart o lilmara ilalf ilQur'an ma7foth min alah 3az wajal, period.

____

In your own words you mention that women's brains work slightly differently than men's. I agree. and this is a perfectly logical basis to differentiate between their roles.

notice brother that u did mention ena u wouldve voted for ma39oma only i she was a man,

ekhtyarik laha kan bilqtna3 tam bena ehya "kashakh9" qadra 3ala iledara fei markazha, ya3ny simply is suited for "the role".

o mithil ma thkartlik ilekht/ norya il9bei7 khair mithal.

i don't understand, why is not ok for some1 that is that successful in what they are, to be?
just because she is a "women"?
brother that does not make sense whatsoever!

o ba3dain ta3al, enta tgoly norya o thatcher were lucky examples,

what about the men that simply "failed" in being where they were put?
is that ok just because they were "men"?

wilbinsba lilfatwa, la yakhoy ana ma gilt jibt'hom min bara im just saying that u should have just respected "walek" ana acceppted they're decisions and here im talking about wzarat ilawqaf wilfatawy ely ta9dir minha.

o mithil ma enta qilt dam ena ilrasol 3alaih il9alat wilsalam howa ilwa7ed ely ma39om min ilkha6a' which i fully agree with,

3ayal mo bas wzarat ilawqaf momkin enha tkon ghl6at ymkin 7ata ilbokhari maho ma39om min naqil ila7adeth ghala6.