Wednesday, October 22, 2008

Embryonic Stem Cells can become Cancerous

First here's what I know about Embryonic Stem Cells from Wikipedia

The gist is that you can either get them from a newly formed embryo, which will then be destroyed after the cells are taken. This is obviously extremely controversial.

How moral is it to make a new embryo and then destroy (kill) it in order to save yourself? they say the embryo is only 4-5 days old when it's ready to be harvested for stem cells. But who can say when do you start seeing a fertilized human egg as a "child-in-development"?

We invent names to call each stage: Egg => Zygote => Blastocyst => Embryo => Fetus => Child

And then at which point do we give the "right of life"? which protects it/him/her from being killed?

In Wikipedia the Fetal Rights page mentiones:
The 1978 American Convention on Human Rights states, in Article 4.1, "Every person has the right to have his life respected. This right shall be protected by law and, in general, from the moment of conception."

Muslims sometimes use a 7adeeth by irrasool PBUH when they bring up this issue, that a fetus receives a "soul" after the 40th day of conception. ya3ne approx. 5-6 weeks. Is that an appropriate marker to use? would that make it OK to exploit embryos younger than 40 days?

Very dodgy stuff.

More than this, I consulted with a close Dr friend who happens to specialize in genetics and he sent me these links about Uncontrollable Growth of some Embryonic Stem Cell treated patients:

Embryo Stem Cells Genetically Unstable after Long Cultivation

Embryonic stem lines unstable

Ten Problems with Embryonic Stem Cell Research

pay attention to point number 9

9- The promises of ESCR are right now nothing more than hoped for possibilities. Successful clinical trials for people are years away at best. Why? The reality is that the scientific evidence so far does not support public statements.

First, one minor complication is that use of human embryonic stem cells requires lifelong use of drugs to prevent rejection of the tissue. Second, another more serious disadvantage is that using embryonic stem cells can produce tumors from rapid growth when injected into adult patients. A third disadvantage reported in the March 8, 2001, New England Journal of Medicine was of tragic side effects from an experiment involving the insertion of fetal brain cells into the brains of Parkinson's disease patients. Results included uncontrollable movements: writhing, twisting, head jerking, arm-flailing, and constant chewing. Fourth, a recent report in the Journal Science reported that mice cloned from ESC were genetically defective. If human ESC are also genetically unstable, that could materially compromise efforts to transform cells extracted from embryos into successful medical therapies. Finally, the research may be hampered because many of the existing stem cell lines were grown with the necessary help of mouse cells. If any of this research is to turn into treatments, it will need approval from the FDA, which requires special safeguards to prevent transmission of animal diseases to people. It is unclear how many of these cell lines were developed with the safeguards in place. This leads to a host of problems related to transgenic issues.

Ya3ne they can cause cancer.

But Adult Stem Cells avoid all this controversy, as well as the cell rejection problem by only taking cells from your own bone marrow. But.. since I'm not in a hurry, and since both methods are not yet approved by major medical centers.. and since my MS Dr. also urged me not to go..

I decided to cancel my trip to Costa Rica and not go ahead with the Stem Cell treatment. Maybe if I wait a year or two, more solid research will get published. Allah a3lam.


ĐǻñĎõøðñ said...

the truth is, any cell can become cancerous, mo bs embryonic :S

bs as long as your doc advised you against it, then i'd listen to him. you might want to consider severaly opinions though :)

wishing you the best of luck =D

falantan said...

sa7, akeed, bs atleast if I see it somewhere specific, I'll try to stay away from that to lessen its chances.

thing is my dr. is only basing her opinion that "there's not enough information".

so the main reason I'm waiting is that my symptoms are not severe yet. otherwise I'd definitely be more adventurous about it.

Danah said...

as you might say: "eye of the brain" :D

allah yaktib elly feeh elkhair.

ZaMaHReeR said...

true i agree with what ur reply on dandoon.. allah yakteb ily feh il khir enshallah :)

falantan said...

danah: "light on you" and
"from your mouth to the door of sky" sis

mashkoor yal7abeeb :)

PaLoMiNo said...

Hi falantan
Today I went through ur blog o read a couple of posts...

awal shay il 7amdela 3ala kil 7aaal & yes MS is mentshir bel kuwait eb shkil raheeeb...

There is nothing to worry about :) hatha kila ajer 3ind raaab il 3almeen...

always look @ the bright side... It is a controlled disease.. Ok not curable yet but el7mdela it can be treated, unlike other diseases which r terminal...

3ala 6aree il surgery 7adaa too soon to think about it!!! o I'm sure u don't wana be a patient on trial sa7!!

o b3deeen u take Betaferon sa7?
o il 7mdela ga3ed tstjeeeb 7ag il 3elaaaj right?

Surgery a9lan should not be on ur mind... Bcoz kafe it's not approved!!!

fi 7aal MS patients ma ystjeebon for betaferon, ako many other options... bas 6ab3an dr's start with betaferon, im sure u know that, coz of less side-effects..

sheno il moshkila in getting injections every other day? el7mdela a7san min ele feehom diabetes ele some lazim up to 3 injections per day...

the patient always has many options, ma nefa3 il betferon, ako interferons, ako il copaxone, ako novantrone, many many more... o finally ako tysabri as a final resort medication...

bas ele abe awth7a ina il 7mdela it's a controlled disease with many treatment options :) wil 6eb kil yooom y6awaaaar o inshalla soon there will be a cure!

ana my friend has MS, she's 23, just had the cutest baby boy.. o il 7mdela her husband & family are very suportive o il 7mdela she is living a normal life...

btw u refered to ur dr with "her" etha ehee ele eb baleee, me & my friend had a fight with "her" maraa... kilsh ma rt7naalha... anyways Men tend to be better Dr's LOL ma e7tramy to all female Dr's ;D
Dandooon b6gnee el7eeen ;p
maykhaalef 7abeebty ana g3da atkaalm eb shkil 3aaam ;p that's not always the case :)

o salaaamaat o ma tshoof shar dear:)

sorry 3al long comment...

falantan said...

awal shai welcome to the blog :)

thani shai thanks sooo much for your concern, your kind words, your information, kilshai kilshai mashkoora 3alaih.

and you're absolutely right that killa min rabby ni3ma. even in sickness. sickness reminds me how fragile I really am, and to never forget how much I depend on Allah. il7emdella alf. 3asa 3omre ma ay'as min ra7meta. bel3aks ana il7emdella met'ammel min Allah kil 5air, sawa'an bhaddinya aw bel'a5ra.

as for the treatment, the existing treatments all are 50/50 in their ability to keep the disease "at bay".. ya3ne if you're lucky and you start treatment early as the MS is starting, then you have a high chance that the "progression" will be slowed significantly. o il7emdella I started my treatment in the early stages. but it doesn't stop it completely though, or repair the damage.

The Adult stem cells however is not really surgery. they don't open you up or anything like that. it's just a Lumbar Puncture (ibrat thahar) to pull some spinal fluid, they process it to filter out the stem cells, treat it with some growth stuff then inject them back into the spinal fluid in order for it to go up and reach the brain "like a paper boat in a stream" was how the dr described it to me.

I'll make a future post about how it works in detail inshalla.

And I mentioned my dr Asmahan al-Shubaili in my previous post, and I found her to be very up to date with all the available treatments 3asalla yenfa3 feha inshalla. mashalla I found her to be extremely smart and sharp.

And I'm surprised walla that your friend has MS at the very young age of 23! sib7analla.. Alla y3eenha ya Rab.

shaklech you helped her with most of her research and information yzach Allah 5air.

And there's a new drug I just heard about on BBC this morning I'm gonna put in a new post inshalla called Alemtuzumab. just got released in the "New England Journal of Medicine"

post said...

im very happy to see how strong ur beleif in God is.. mashala alah itamim 3alaik, becuz its the only thing that matters :) I think you took the right decision to wait, there is no rush if you are il7imdila adapted to ur current treatment :)

Smtimes it hurts when u see people u know going thru MS. Especially since it seems to hit those in their youth, making it painful to see a friend or family member in such a young age suffering.. what can we do to help? are there things you wish that your family or friends, cud do to help when you suffer an attack? (inshala b3eed ishar)

falantan said...

Thank you post. o I wish that my belief is as strong as you say. 3asalla ythabetna aham shai.

and you're absolutely right its the only thing that matters :)

And to answer your question about attacks. The word "attack" makes it sound more dramatic that it really is, like sudden pain or "sara3" (Alla yjeerkum). but the reality is that it's not like that.

MS attacks are interchangeably called an "exacerbation" or a relapse or a flare-up. usually its something small like numbness or pin-pricking or tingling in a "new" area of the body and lasts for more than 24 hours.

for my attacks atleast I never experienced them as extremely sudden. instead they were gradual over a day or a couple of days til they reached their full effect. and my most annoying attack was on my left eye 1 year ago, it stayed for about 1 month, then went away. it's completely random for where it will hit next, can be anything. and since our brain functions are much much more than just motor skills, it's very possible that some symptoms or attacks are not even detected by the patient (for example a certain memory or calculation ability can get lost without the patient noticing).

some highly progressed patients can lose basic abilities like walking completely and so on.

So for a friend to help, it's not an emergency like diabetes where you might have to quickly give them a spoon of honey or sugar, instead it's simply like aiding someone slightly disabled in a certain and specific way, each patient differently.

3asalla yjeerkna o yjeerkum

post said...

Im very grateful for ur explanation, thankyou for being open with this, and for correcting the word for me becuz i really wanted to learn the rite termanology :) But what i meant with "help" is what we can do to help a family member or a friend out of the relapse (b3eed ishar) emotionally? is there a way we can help fasten the pace of passing thru it? (im sorry for asking alot its just that im very interested in MS since i heard of its sudden spread in kuwait and i wud like to learn from a person who is going thru it.. alah ishafeek inshala oo igaweek, mako shay ib3eed 3an allah sob7anah :)

ps: i watched an interview once on ilwatan tv, "taw ilail", with a guy (i dont recall his name) who was able to defeat MS. Did watch it?

falantan said...

laaaa bel3aks ask all you want :)
ana my sole purpose for posting about it was to encourage sharing info in the 1st place.

and you say you mean emotional help? well hmm.. madre, in my case it was knowledge. learning about it.

A friend of my sister once felt numbness and tingling in her feet and a dr told her it might be MS without proper tests being made, and with the lack of information she had about MS the girl really panicked and started crying o 7aala.

So I would say that proper knowledge is very important honestly, so the patient can put the problem in it's correct size and not overblow it.

And the main thing ofcourse is il'eeman bAllah o essaber welwa7ed ye7teseb il'ajer. amr ilmo'men killah 5air. so reminding your friend of that can help them emotionally as well.

As for the guy on TV la walla sorry I don't watch much TV, didn't see it. but I don't know of any cure for MS yet. bs kilshe jayez, ishefa min Allah.

post said...

Thanks Alot for ur welcoming! :D i agree with u there should be proper awarness to help society understand it better and not over react or neglect when they feel similar symptoms.

Thats unfortunate becuz it was a very interesting interview. The man was kuwaiti, and he was determined to defeat his illness. He was desperatly in search of a way to do so and refused to surrender to medication for the rest of his life. Finally an indian professor who he met in london, took him to a buddist reservation in india. He stayed there for 3 months, no one of his family was allowed to accompany him. After much medetation and help of the serenity and natural environment around him, he came to the conclusion that his mind was stronger than his body and thru his determination and God's will, he wud be able to defeat it. And gradually he did. He now no longer suffers from MS mashala. Maybe u should see the interview? who knows inshala ull be able to do the same, i do beleive that there are some cures beyond medicine..

falantan said...

akeed I fully believe that reading some Qur'an would be beneficial.
قال الله تعالى : ( وننزل من القرءان ما هو شفاء ورحمة للمؤمنين ولا يزيد الظالمين إلا خساراً ) الإسراء / 82
bs honestly I'm not doing that to myself, laziness I'm afraid. but you've motivated me to do it. if one truly believes in something then I should work with it.

one of the easiest ways is to read ilfat7a 7 times on the affected area. and everybody knows ilfat7a. and I think it will be much more effective if one thinks about the words as he recites them.

post said...

yes.. ur absolutley rite. wan3ima bil8uraan.. not only thinking about the words, but also tarteel il8uraan while recitation is proven to be most effective. They infact set up a human experiment, where they put a group of ill people in the 3 different rooms, one room where they read regular words with tarteel quraany, the other room where they read quraan w/o tarteel, and the third room quraan with tarteel. And it appeared that the people in the third room were the most effected and started healing rapidly (the ppl in 1st room werent affected at all ofcourse).

im glad this is motivating u :) u shouldnt surrender, u have children and a wife to live to (alah i5aleelik iyahom).. they want u to be there for them in ur best health.. o 3asak dom 3al gowa ;)

falantan said...

wow.. I'd love to get my hands on any references to the experiment you mentioned! got any links?

post said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
post said...

i heard of that experiment on tv from a kuwaiti researcher so unfortunatly i dont have a direct reference to it. But here is a link i found that containes a very similar experiment as well as another one that proves the affect of quran recitations on the human being:

(maybe its the same story im not sure :S) enjoy ;)

PaLoMiNo said...

falantan Thanks for welcoming me :)

Don't Thank me Ok?:) ma sawyt shay!

etgool ur surprized my friend has MS at a very young age?
tabeeny a9demik?

gabil fatra i was bel gym... I was in a bad mood o i wanted to sit a lone, ow ako spot bel gym 3al selaam usaully eykoon empty so if i wana sit alone i always go there.. so the other day I went, wela can ako this girl that looked so young o menharaaaa min il bachy!!!!!! o she was talking to someone 3al mobile o etgola ana many rada il byt o inshala amoot wetha maa miit bant7ir!!! :X
6ab3aan ana sheft chethe o a9laan i was in a bad mood chan agom abchy ma3aaha :X
o razyt wayheeee o ga3at yamha ;X
chan faja taskit... galt le na3am?
gelt laha khl9ay min il kha6 abe aklmich... il mohem sadat il khaaa6 o g3dna nsolef for 2 hours.. i found out that She was 16 only!!! & diagnosed with MS 9arlha couple of months... o she's not taking her injections! takheth-hom min il hospital o tg6hom bel zbala (went eb karma)
I WAS SHOCKED!!! 3awrat galby...
sa3aaa aqn3ha o aklmha o afhma o ashraa7 laha bas lel asaaf ras-ha yabes... bel akheer galt le I gtg.. gelt laha 3a6eni raqmich 3lshan a6man 3alych... lel asaaf I found later ena 3a6tne raqm ghalaa6, o kint kilyom adwerha bel gym bas ma ashoofhaa... Salaat 3an ismha bel gym galo ma 3indna wa7da meshtrka eb hal esm... Min yomha ma adry 3anha :X alla eyhdeeha o eyshfeeha inshalla...

regarding Alemtuzumab, il esm il tejari is campth sa7?
I don't know much about it bas I know its used to treat cancer patients... I have another friend obooha ey3lej in france o kano y36oona hal dowa... mashla obooha estfaaad mina bas i said, he's a totaaly different case... bas dymaan new medications for new treatments ynkhaaf menhom, coz u still dont have enough clinical trial to treat that certain new cases, & u don't know what are the side effects on the long run, say in 10-20 years...
wel campth wayed eyqalil il man3aa.. so the patient will tend to get infections easily...
btw medications are easily approved for use in europe, so I prefer to stick with medication that are FDA (US) approved only...

I checked the FDA site regarding Campth, it is not approved for MS.

check this out:

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has learned of three patients with multiple sclerosis (MS) who developed severe idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP) while participating in a clinical study of Campath for treatment of MS.

Here is the link to read more:

il kalaam shwy eykhre3 bas u know how americans like to say all the details..

ana i trust il FDA o i love il site malhom...

mashala Ur strong & u can overcome this disease inshalaa... ow inshallaa soon there will be a cure... keep ur hopes up :)

u will be in my prayers...
Take care & God Bless You :**

falantan said...

Yes you're right I actually checked with my Dr. about Alemtuzumab (Campath) and she said the same thing and she added that this new news is coming out because the 2nd phase of trials just finished.

The link you sent was the result of the 1st phase in 2005, then phase 2 took 3 years with 334 patients with early diagnosed RRMS which have not been treated yet.

So my Dr said that now they're gonna start phase 3 and it it should take around 1-1.5 years to finish.

The phase 2 results do clearly show that the immune system suffers and gets overly lowered. And also that one patient from phase 1 actually died. but that was a very early stage and now they know how to avoid that.

this article analyzes the phase 2 results pretty well:
New hope for multiple sclerosis sufferers

so it does look promising. mainly because not only was it more effective in stopping MS, but some symptoms actually got "reversed" or repaired.

Not that I'm going out to get the drug right now, but this series of posts was to share info, and that's what we're doing.

O la ana strong wala shai, bs il7emdella Allah illi strong o madam ilwa7ed amala b'Allah, may5eeb inshalla.

sadia said...

sorry...i didn't read the complete post. but i just want to wish you good health brother, always.

may allah (swt) guide you in all your ordeals and help you make the correct decisions.

may you have a long, blessed life. ameen.

sadia said...

walla, negativity does suck!
(it's 7aram...i think)

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